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Email us if you have any topics to open for discussion, or post your opinion on the topics listed here using the form provided below each discussion thread.  While it is our desire for this forum to as open to diverse opinions as possible, we reserve the right to remove postings we consider to be grossly inappropriate. Please read our disclaimer.

Please support your opinion with scripture wherever possible. You may use a "nick" instead of your real name.

Discussion Topics:

  • Prophecy in the Church
    Posted by Ron Johnson on Sunday 7th April 2002 at 13:08:32
      - 5 comments on this post - most recent Friday 14th September 2007 at 18:06:36
  • Church healing
    Posted by Eddie Miller on Wednesday 14th February 2001 at 11:09:05
      - 2 comments on this post - most recent Thursday 18th October 2001 at 15:45:05
  • Calling GOD by other names
    Posted by Senior, sane and steadfast! on Saturday 22nd July 2000 at 11:07:50
      - 1 comment on this post - most recent Thursday 27th July 2000 at 13:25:54
  • Put Christ back into Christmas
    Posted by Shaun Gouws on Saturday 13th November 1999 at 11:07:11
      - 3 comments on this post - most recent Thursday 21st March 2013 at 03:33:00
  • Why 2K ???
    Posted by Vernon Every on Wednesday 15th September 1999 at 13:54:01
      - 2 comments on this post - most recent Friday 8th October 1999 at 22:10:52
  • Messing about in the River!
    Posted by Shaun Gouws on Friday 30th July 1999 at 13:27:17
      - 3 comments on this post - most recent Saturday 29th September 2001 at 08:04:33

Messing about in the River!

Posted by Shaun Gouws on Friday 30th July 1999 at 13:27:17
3 comments on this post - most recent Saturday 29th September 2001 at 08:04:33

An editorial by Tony Black of I.R.N.

There's an old song with that title which keeps coming to mind. Could it be God trying to tell me something, or is it just summer madness!? You see, I'm feeling just a wee bit fed up at the moment. Is it just me ? 

Ever since moving home last year I've been to lots of churches, trying to find a place where God is allowed to be God, and where the Holy Spirit flows freely without the control of some bloke who reckons that it's his Church, or some syndicate who reckons it's a democracy ! But, ouch, I just can't find one. You guys in Toronto just don't know how blessed you are !

I know what I'll do, I tell myself; I'll go to a place with a reputation for letting the River flow. It's a distance, but the only one for miles. At least I can have a good soak. No power-suits up front squashing the worship group; no controllers hanging onto the pulpit so that all I see is their face; and no elders strutting around ensuring that my seatbelt is permanently fixed (what for.. are we going somewhere ?!)

So, a long journey later, and what do I get ? Some bloke cutting across what the Holy Spirit was doing in the worship, and preaching at us for 50 minutes ! Aaargh&ldots; I don't want to be preached at for 50 minutes, I want to spend time with my Daddy. I've been working hard. I'm hungry. I'm thirsty. Why does someone always have to stick his size eleven boots in the River ?

Is it possible we could just allow the worshippers to lead us into God's presence, through the gates of thanksgiving, into the courts with praise, and on to the Holy of Holies (it's really very simple you know) -- and then jolly well leave us there to get healed-up, cleaned-up, blessed-up and empowered-up ?!

"Oh tut tut, brother" comes the reply, "we must have THE Wooorrrrrd".

Agreed. Within reason ! But hold on a mo.. The "Word" you tell me !!?

J E S U S *IS* T H E W O R D - - isn't He !!?

I want Him. I need Him. I'll go anywhere to find and worship Him. Just somewhere, please, and soon ! I'm getting desperate (can you tell ?) and, truth to be told, so are most of the other pew-fodder that I know.

Listen to me Mr Preacher in your power-suit: I love you, I like you, I honour you, I'll listen to you (briefly I hope), I'll go bowling with you; to a match with you; and even give money on top of my tythe offering, love offering, guilt offering and bad-bahaviour offering -- but pleeeeese, please, pretty please.. sit down soon. You're blocking the river. 

Cmon fellas. Let the river flow ~~~~\o/~~~~

Much Love (honestly), Tony Black

COPYRIGHT: Reproduction of IRN reports is welcomed but we ask that you
use this credit line please: [Source: IRN: ]

Comment submitted by Julie Joyner on Saturday 29th September 2001 at 08:04:33

Amen Brother Preach It!!!! I live in the buckle of the bible belt in the United States and I am experiencing the same thing. I cried out to the Lord and He led my husband and myself to establish a home church. We gave up on the institutionalized church. We even gave up on the one a mile down the street where people were getting the gold teeth fillings and gold dust. The gold became the focus instead of the Lord. So we have our home church and we partake of the River on a regular basis. We get together and we study the word and we pray and we seek the presence of the Lord together. We have all ended up on the floor soaking in His presence. The Lord will answer the cry of your heart. Don't give up. I have been checking the web all over the English speaking world and everybody is crying out to God for His manifested presence. Religion is threatened by the cry of your heart because it means its' demise. Don't take to heart the criticism in the responses you have gotten here.

Comment submitted by Vimvaan on Tuesday 25th January 2000 at 23:43:45

Messing about in the river with big boots and turning the water into mud.

That actually is very scriptural Ezekiel 32v11to16, Isaiah57v20, Psalm 40v2 & Proverbs 25v26.

The general gist after you have read all of these is that the Pure water which we all should Know is the word of God, gets muddied up and becomes dirty and not the true word of God. False profits, anti-Christ, self righteous dictator’s etc distort the truth and the true word of God which Jesus, Paul and Peter preached. They dominate the pulpit and suffocate the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah says in 57v20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which can not rest, whose waves cast up mire and mud.

Paul Black, I think I know where you are coming from. After listening to hundreds of sermons from this one and that one and TV. I finally found the answer at the age of 43 in a most unlikely place. I could not wait to get back into my old church and a few others to see if they had what I had found. Sadly, not. Still not. But the Light is starting to shine through.

From your letter Paul I sense that you Know God better than you are letting on. You know what the truth is, but just can not find any one who agrees with you.

Jesus had the same trouble. The first time he opened his mouth in a church they chased him out and tried to throw him of a cliff. It was mainly the churches that eventually nailed him to a tree to get rid of him, so as to secure their lofty positions. In 2000 years things have not changed much. The devil has done a smashing job in the river of Life.

Like Jesus said, they will all be led astray, even the saints if that were possible.

I believe that the word of GOD really is what it says it is, sharper than any double-edged sword. Like rain that falls to earth, it accomplishes its purpose. This new Millennium will see the nations swinging over to worship the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, as well as Praising Jesus. For those who do not Know their scriptures that comes from Romans 15v5&6 & Psalm 87 all. Last verse talks about all the Fountains of water having their being in the Most High God The Father.

I believe the whole earth is going to be filled with the praises and glory of God the Father, who raised his son from the dead, and made him our High priest King and Lord & God for ever and ever. Just as he promised David he would do. 2 Samuel 7 v (12 to 29)

I only pray that when he comes again, all the Christians will say blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord & know His and Our Glorious God and Father. That they will be found worshiping the Father in Spirit and in truth as well as giving praise to Jesus. For as Jesus said. The Father is seeking Spiritual Worshipers to worship him in Spirit and in Truth. John 4 v 21 to 25

KISS Keep It Simply Spiritual. God bless all with The Fire of His Loving Holy Spirit of Unity.


Comment submitted by Werner Greeff on Monday 30th August 1999 at 15:03:49

Shalom everyone,

Before we allow Mr. Black to introduce his "revival" reformation to our churches, let's examine his article for a moment. His post is filled with all the right elements for a persuasive article. I am no student of Rhetoric, and don't wish to be, but I can recognize it when I see it. Mr. Black starts off telling us of his great search, visiting "lots of churches" all just to find one place where "God is allowed to be God and where the Holy Spirit flows freely". But out of all these churches he found NONE! But what is Mr. Black looking for? Are we as the body of Christ so deceived that he cannot find a church of truth anywhere close to where he was. And just to tell us what he is looking for he reminds the "guys in Toronto" of just how blessed they are. Finally Mr. Black decided to go somewhere, a far far place. The only place where the "river flow(s)" in many miles. What is Mr. Black looking for? Where do we fail? What river? How is it suppose to flow? Well, Mr. Black travelled all the way so that he could at least "have a good soak". When he finally got there he was shocked. The place where the river seemed to flow had a sermon! A guy called "some bloke" preached at him for 50 Minutes! No, no! This is not the River! Mr. Black does not "want to be preached at for 50 minutes". He wants to "spend time with my Daddy. I have been working hard. I'm hungry. I'm thirsty." But someone stuck their "size eleven boots" in the River! Mr. Black does not want the Word of God to be preached. He wants "just the worshippers" to lead him into a some atmosphere which he believes to be God's presence, the Holy of Holies. And once he is there he wants to be "jolly well" left there "to get healed-up, cleaned up, blessed-up, and empowered up"

But he realized that the faithful Christians would want the Word of God. So Mr. Black continues sarcastically "we must have THE Woooorrrrd". He agreed but "within reason". Then just after he had us believe that he will allow some place for the word he completely destroys what he said with some bad logic and poor Bible interpretation saying that since Jesus is the Word, all he needs is Jesus. All he needs to do is worship Jesus. Mr. Black is very desperately crying out "I'll go anywhere to find and worhips Him. Just somewhere, please, and soon! I'm getting desperate..."

Now I want to tell you the readers of this article something. If you will go to the top of the page you will find the words "please support your opinion with scripture wherever possible". Not ONE scripture reference can be found in his letter. So I guess it is safe to assume that what he is saying is not scriptural. I have pondered for some time on this article and how to respond. I have no other option than to say Mr. Black is deceived. Allow me to give you some scriptural refutation of his article:

Mr. Black seems to battle to find the Lord. He says that he will "go anywhere to find and worship him, just somewher, please, and soon!". I hope this statement shows you into what dangers Mr. Black's river search/movement will lead us. When we can't see the manifestations we want to then we will get desperate to find God. That shows me that God was not found in the first place. We are told in scripture that He will never leave us nor forsake us. The Bible teaches quite the opposite to what Mr. Black is saying. Mr. Black is looking for Jesus to Worship him, this after he declared that Jesus is the Word. Well, scripture tells us that "the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (Deut. 30:14). It is near us. We are born from the Word of God, it abides in us. (1 Pet. 1:23). We don't have to fly to some place where the "river flows" to worship Him. The Spirit of God permanently resides in us and we can have fellowship with Him and with our Lord Jesus and our Father through the Holy Spirit (Phil. 2:1, 1 Jn. 4:13, 1 The. 4:8 etc).

Mr. Black does not want to listen to the Word of God, but only wants to be left in the river, in some supernatural atmosphere to be healed-up, cleaned-up, blessed-up and empowered-up.

What is the Word on this?

Ps. 107:20 "He sent his word, and healed them". Thank God for the healing power in his Word. If healing requires faith, then we need the Word for "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17). When we take in the Word of God the Power of God is released into our lives to heal us physically, emotionally, spiritually etc. Mr. Black, to get healed-up, I advise you to get Worded-Up.

John. 15:3 "Now ye are clean through the WORD which I have spoken unto you"
Eph. 5:25-27 "...just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing but that she should be holy and without blemish."

Thank God his Word is a sanctifying power! The last day church will not become a glorious church, to be presented pure, holy, spotless through the washing of the River, no, but as scripture says Jesus will wash us by the "washing of the water by the WORD".

Let me also tell you what the Word of God does. The same Word which Mr. Black does not want to hear. You can never replace the Word of God! The Word of God in Ps. 12:^ and 93:5 declares of itself that is both SURE and PURE forever! God created the heavens and the earth by his Word! (Ps. 33:6, 2 Peter 3:5). God's Word brings LIFE and COMFORT (Ps. 119:50, 6:63). God's Word upholds and preserves all things (Heb. 1:3m 2 Pet. 3:7), yes even our very lives, our next breath. Ps. 12:6, 119:140 goes even further than saying the Word is Pure and declares that he Word of God is VERY PURE. His Word is settles forever, it stands forever, it shall by no means pass away and cannot be broken. (Ps. 119:89, Is. 40:8, Matthew 24:35, John 10:35). The Word of God is living, powerful and sharp and is the discerner of the thoughts and intents of our very hearts. (Heb. 4:12).

I have visited Mr. Black's Revival News's website only to find many other testimonies and articles without scripture. His idea of the river is not just to be clean and healed and empowered, oh no. It is filled with strange and foreign manifestations. Please my dear friends, let us keep the Word of God as the lamp to our feet and light to our path (Ps. 119:105, 119:30).

God highly esteems his Word. Do you know that Scripture even states that God has magnified his Word above his own Name? (Ps. 138:2). If God Himself exalted His Word to such an important place, how much more should we, human beings. The Psalmist in Ps. 119 said that he has hidden God's WORD in his heart so that he does not sin against the LORD God. Let us hid the Word of God in our hearts, so that we might not be deceived and sin before the LORD.

Now you will find that people like me and many others are accused or idolizing God's Word. What a false accusation! Just because we love the Word and Fear God, not wanting to be deceived but to have the Word of God and it only to be our instructor, our light and lamp to our path and feet we are accused of worshipping the Word. No, we Worship the Lord, and He has commanded us that if we love him we shall keep his Word.

I want to share with you one last thing, something precious to me. I pray it will also be a blessing to you. In the next passage Solomon gives instruction, that we should give attention to the godly instruction of our Father and Mother and that we should bind them continually upon our hearts and tie them around our necks. Only the Word of God is ever commanded to be obeyed this way. What will our reward be if we show such a respect and fellowship and obedience to the Word of God?

Proverbs 6:22 "When you roam, they will lead you,
  When you sleep, they will keep you,
  And when you awake, they will speak with you"

When we love the Word of God, and hide in our hearts we will be led by it when we walk, we will be kept by it when we sleep and it will advice us, speak with us when we awake. Let us allow the Word of God to lead us, to keep us, and to have fellowship with us.

I would also like to warn you today against extremism. Before you get into any river, let them proof that the river is good, that it is pure, godly and Scriptural. And if you are accused of messing up their river, then so be it. In the judgment day it is only the Word of God that will stand. Let us cling the His Word with all our might and be led in all truth.

God bless.
(Should you have any questions please do not hesitate to email me.)


Port Elizabeth, South-Africa


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